Trump as Litmus Test: Ideology vs. Anti-Establishment

The Trump campaign has revealed to me a schism in the opposition coalition that I have not seen as vividly in the past. It’s hard to articulate precisely, but it’s between people who will tolerate deviations from their ideal just to see it stuck to the Man, and those who want it stuck to the Man but not like that. I suppose this has to do with some balance between how dearly you cling to your ideal vs. how badly you just want to watch the Establishment squirm. Since I long ago gave up hope of my ideal actually being restored, I’m pretty much in the screw the Establishment camp at this point. I say burn the Establishment house down Trump baby! Burn it down!

25 thoughts on “Trump as Litmus Test: Ideology vs. Anti-Establishment

  1. Kirt Higdon

    I’ve never really expected to see my ideal in this world and I’m enough of a realist to know that this multi-billionaire media mega-star is about as far from being anti-establishment as is possible. And he’s not sticking it to the man; he’s providing entertainment both for the man and the masses. Without the entertainment, the turnout for the boring and irrelevant US elections might fall to such embarrassing levels that the whole democracy fraud would be exposed. As an extra bonus Trump almost guarantees that oligarchess-in-chief Hilly Clinton will win and she along with her husband (and Trump buddy) Billy will get another term or two of lying and looting. So much for the establishment to love. No wonder they’re giving Trump so much free media coverage, he probably won’t have to spend even a dime of his own to get publicity.

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  2. redphillips Post author

    Kirt, if Trump isn’t sticking it to the Establishment (both THE Establishment and the GOP and Conservative Inc. Establishments), then why are they in such panic mode? The amount of perceived threat is measured by the reaction to it.

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    1. weavercht

      Red,

      there was just on, the CEO of Peebles (black) condemning Trump for being “offensive”, saying Jeb would bring the economy back. How Jeb would bring the economy back, no one can say; but every attack possible is being made on Trump.

      Just like when Buchanan ran. I used to hear very right wing types say “Buchanan is too extreme to win”. Why? Because he wasn’t establishment. Buchanan wasn’t repeating what every other candidate was saying.

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  3. hawthornecht

    Red;

    I (as well as old friend Sav.) noted how weak the parties were at the local level and how in the North, “we” could take over the parties (even if not worth much) where Southerners could take over their local Democrat operations and run pro-worker/anti-war/pro-farm stuff–as it relates to the Ron Paul campaigns. Ron Paul was not trying to win and ran awful campaigns so that was the fly in the ointment. Buchanan didn’t want to finish what he started and his sister was the worst campaign manager of all time.

    Trump is doing all the gonzo and theater I have talked about over the last 3 years as being the only real politics left (as far as elections go) and I have my doubts he is trying to win. He is very GOP, very Establishment, but he is illustrating the weakness of the party and cutting down all these personalities. Bill Antle was channeling his mopey 2007-08 self and calling Trump’s campaign dead after his McCain comment last week–I replied back that he was wrong.

    Any thinking paleo or libertarian with proper administrative skills should, just in case, be supporting the Trump campaign–and that means you Red–and we could yet stuff the place with Ron Swansons.

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    1. hawthornecht

      It’s one character in Parks and Rec, one character created by a real person who has best selling books based on the character he created–he lives the character, Reality TV, like…Trump.

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  4. redphillips Post author

    It appears that Donald Trump is kinda winging it, and may have actually stumbled into some of his success. I signed up for e-mails a while back, and have gotten no response. His site has no gear on it. He may have advance teams working in Iowa, NH, SC, I don’t know, but the campaign appears to be seat of the pants. He should hire Ed Rollins maybe.

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    1. weavercht

      That’s very much my impression. Trump needs help.

      I really wish Raimondo would step up to volunteer. Trump is obviously not as bad as these ridiculous libertarians imagine him to be. It’s doubtful he cares about race, and there’s no sign he wants a police state.

      It’s childish how these libertarians have been acting.

      It’s a shame Pat is so old. The media never liked Pat, but they’d bring him on just because he makes such great replies. He was simply too good to keep off the air. Pat has the arguments Trump needs.

      I don’t think Trump has much understanding of politics. He’s right on trade and immigration, but I bet his thinking is flexible and open.

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      1. hawthornecht

        Raimondo cannot volunteer but he did quickly change his tone on Twitter which was helped by Rand’s sell out on Iran Deal. Trump understands politics–he doesn’t understand conservatives, but Nixon always found them a bit strange. But lets look at the positives, soon the Cheap Labor Lobby will be a well known phrase and more…cuckservative is making the rounds.

        These are major accomplishments already.

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      2. weavercht

        Trump lacks Buchanan’s arguments. I’m not saying Trump will become a Buchananite, but I believe Buchanan could overtake him on some positions. Trump has likely never heard Buchanan’s arguments, and Buchanan could make better sense of trade.

        US Democrats are equally confusing. They want higher wages and to preserve the environment, but they don’t mind mass immigration. They are not logical.

        I’d say they’re both just sheep. You can’t understand Democrats or Republicans unless looking at them together. It’s a divide-and-conquer strategy.

        Honestly, I find most all the little groups on the right and left to be contradictory as well. The Kinists and Identitarians and such (all closely related groups) make sense to me. Everyone else is crazy.

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    2. hawthornecht

      Trump knew Roy Cohn, and hires tough Jews to battle for him. If he is serious, this will get wonderfully crazy. Roger Stone is running in Florida and is a friend of Trumps (and the late Cohn) and leading in polls. Things are shaping up for a fun season. Take advantage.

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  5. Kirt Higdon

    Red, the establishment is not in panic mode. Trump’s candidacy is a gift to them for all the reasons I stated. If his candidacy did not exist they would have had to invent it and maybe they did. Now they are having a WWE style brawl to entertain the sheeple and you apparently are seriously taking this as panic. Yeah right – that’s why all the establishment media are falling all over themselves to give him free publicity. Trump is all anyone is talking about these days and that includes me and lots of other people who know he’s a phony. Can you imagine how utterly boring this election cycle would be without him?

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    1. weavercht

      Trump is loved for speaking up about immigration and trade.

      You don’t want immigration mentioned, so there’s a difference of interests here.

      I believe most support for immigration is for either profit or a desire to replace Americans. Your motive seems to be something else.

      It’s a struggle for wages, sovereignty, and identity.

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  6. Kirt Higdon

    I’m actually pretty indifferent to immigration. I know it’s difficult for the immigration obsessed to imagine that, but lots of people are like that. And Trump is hardly the first and won’t be the last to talk about immigration or trade. What amuses me is that anyone who seriously opposes immigration would imagine that Trump, mass employer and serial marrier of immigrants, would do anything to stop immigration. But believing what you’re told if it’s something you want to hear and ignoring actual performance seems to be increasingly common on this site.

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    1. weavercht

      Kirt,

      Trump is an oligarch, but he’s not working for the oligarchs. That is a huge difference. Trump’s already made his money. He’s unlikely to be up for sale. How much money can one man want?

      As Red noted, Trump *might* be doing all this out of a desire to do good. That’s the sort we want, someone who wants to do good, not merely serve masters. Trump is strong enough, or at least strong in his wealth, to resist some influence. He is at risk of being manipulated (in a bad way) for his inexperience, as Dubya was, and Trump’s friends might influence him badly.

      I don’t necessarily love Trump. I see it in my interests to support him right now. I was calling Ron Paul a useful loon when I was advocated for him before, or “advocated” to some degree (I dislike when he converts people).

      I believe Trump is the best gamble and in any event the best candidate-to-lose, since a Dem is likely to win. I think he needs someone like you or Pat Buchanan or Justin Raimondo to guide him: Someone who knows the issues, especially on foreign policy and sane but achievable economic policy and general debate points. Dubya was guided by the neocons, and Trump is open for infiltration here by paleos.

      Btw, I have a lot of respect for you of course. You’re incredibly well educated in areas and seemingly (I don’t know you) a good person.

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  7. hawthornecht

    Kirt;

    You have read this blog for years and learned nothing. Nobody here thinks Trump will do this or that, what we respect is that our ideas even advertised ever so moderately, still have impact, and Trump can do a lot of damage to the GOP as a corporate structure–and certainly Con Inc hacks are going suffer. In the power vacuum to follow, opportunity arises. And Trump is the wrecking ball..for the moment anyway.

    We get it–you would rather spend all day posting how you are going to vote/not vote, support (LOL) or not support. Nobody here, thank god, is writing about that. Theater, snark, gonzo is politics, not some set of policies. The government has been on autopilot since the Nixon coup d’etat. Elected politicians have no real power.

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    1. Kirt Higdon

      Hawthorne

      I think you mischaracterize me since I see electoral politics just about exactly as you do. I further agree with you on the Trump is a wrecking ball take. Yes, he may be able to destroy the GOP by turning 2016 from a likely defeat to a complete rout. And destroying the GOP and the conservative movement would be a good thing. So where do we differ? My differences are with Red and Weaver who seem to take Trump at face value and see him as a potential savior, given a little guidance from one person or another.

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      1. weavercht

        Kirt,

        first let me say I’m fully capable of holding mutually contradictory positions at the same time. I believe this marks me as insane.

        Secondly, down with Conservative Inc!

        Anyway, a lot of good has come out of Trump’s candidacy, whatever his motives and character.

        Gregory Hood just wrote an article that was clearly either written in part by, influenced by, or written for Hawthorne: http://www.radixjournal.com/journal/2015/7/22/why-we-need-a-troll-as-president

        From the article, Trump has apparently been pro-choice (no surprise), pro-Israel (obviously), not racial (obviously), favoured gun control (no surprise), favoured socialised health care (no surprise), wobbled on amnesty (no surprise).

        And like Hood, I don’t care. I still believe it’s in my interests to support Trump at this time.

        Trump is getting attacked so fiercely also, that he might switch over to become harder. People do switch, and Trump strikes me as a noobie – and non-ideological.

        As Hood points out, Trump dares to hold the position that the US should act in some sense of its interests. *Shock* *Horror* That’s essentially what he’s done that has people like me supporting him and people like, well most of America, freaking out.

        Hillary talks about helping America’s poor, but Trump might actually do something about it. That’s not to say I expect a higher minimum wage from Trump.

        Incidentally, I could also vote for pro-immigrant Sanders. I just don’t believe in conservative strategy. Conservatives are failures, and I just dislike the movement. I’m not just taking contradictory positions. I could certainly be wrong. And yea, I believe pro-immigrant Sanders might actually bring in less immigration than would Jeb. Though I could be wrong.

        It’s ridiculous that Sanders wants immigration and protected trade, but it sort of makes sense when contrasted with the equally nonsensical Republican perspective. The two groups just get into such a fervor of antagonism that no one bothers to ask whether either policy set makes sense.

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  8. hawthornecht

    W; I was going to do this as an article–and may yet do it and put in the links, but while we have a discussion going, see below. I anticipated Hood’s position because I read Twitter and FB; a 300 level Poli Sci class in our virtual Life University will, unencumbered by fear of wrong think, net the same results; I troll and interact (some might note Raimondo’s twitter act has changed tune):

    Ron Paul Campaigns and the Trump Phenomanon

    I was initially put off by the intellectually lazy Jeff Tucker column on the nature of fascism and Trumpism, though a listen to a Radix podcast with Rich Spencer and Mike Enoch did mention in the more contemporary generic sense, the fascistic/fuhrer princip of the aesthetic sense that can be applied to Trump’s campaign has some merit.
    I will point out that Trump’s Reagan borrowed line “Make America Great Again” looks backward, which doesn’t suggest the futuristic qualities of the fascist world view/approach.
    __
    Ron Paul’s two Againist campaigns adopted the libertarian label—a title, based on his long association with the (pre-Internet) institutions that made up libertarianism/the Patriot Movement et al, produced very little for the resources that were consumed. What it really came down to, however, was the second campaign suggesting an open infiltration, where delegates would be elected according to the rules of the state party. While the State Parties were proven weak, there was no seizure of power, as the process was done above board, by the rules and openly published.
    Paul’s, I would say, humiliating failure, and the tactical defeat of the GOP as a corporate structure, was his inability to get a speaking part at the convention and his failure to support his supporters in the field who were inclined towards a showdown, even one that my contain elements of violence in the form of physical confrontation. The inability to let that steam out now expresses itself in the Trump campaign.
    The libertarian movement, unwilling to engage in the street brawls the fascists and the National Socialists (et al European fascist movements) with the Communists (who granted were a more ‘real’ enemy in uniforms), was revealed as impotent, even if in its ranks there were those willing to confront.
    This desire for confrontation is human nature and where it could have been constrained to the ‘peaceful’ Ron Paul campaign, it has been now unleashed and adapted into the Trump campaign. A steam valve it might yet be, but the potential is brewing. Save, as they say, the Revolution will not be televised—see the Cuckservative meme uprising of the past weekend.

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    1. weavercht

      I like the cuckservative meme. I’ve been saying we’re overrun with brood parasites.

      Fascism was used mostly as a slur there. The libertarian just used it to mean a polity exerting its interests as a polity. By that definition, classical political science is filled with fascists.

      I don’t like the term “fascist” to some extent, because I see it as moderns attempting to hijack a reactionary movement. My issue isn’t with race but that I’m wary futuristic fascists aren’t nationalist at all. So, my concern is they’re not right wing enough, not pious, traditional, racial, rooted, decentralised, etc. When Machiavelli says the choice is between Sparta and Venice on the one hand and expanding Rome on the other, I choose Sparta and Venice, the polities not designed for expansion.

      The whole point of power is it’s necessary for survival in the near-term. But it’s also dangerous, especially in the longer term. I’d like to see something built that endures.

      Ah, anyway, if Trump can use nationalism, it’s a powerful force. He wouldn’t even need to pursue national interests of course, to get people to rally; but I hope he does somewhat.

      And of course, we can hopefully use all this too, no matter who wins.

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    1. weavercht

      Trump is intentionally not taking a solid position. VDARE has also written on him.

      It’s not that we believe he’s a closet Buchananite. Anyway, Trump hasn’t recently flirted with amnesty. He’s being misportrayed there.

      That Trump has commented on Mexico “not sending its best” is at least something. Beggars can’t be choosers.

      Whom do you support over Trump? His commenting on putting American interests first is a major positive.

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    2. hawthornecht

      RonL arrives to tell us what David Horowitz’s outfit has to say.

      Our interest is not his policy or positions, but his exposure of the cuckservatives and his Identity. With paleo activism, things can yet be accomplished. He has no organic grassroots–so be the Grassroots. Together we will get Red his position as HHS Director of Whatever.

      Trump is malleable and in need of talent.

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